By Ralph C. Hancock, with Julie Higginson Hancock
 

When I chose recently, in articles posted at Meridian Magazine (part 1, part 2), to engage critically what I called “Mormonism Lite,” I knew I was likely to stir up considerable heat, but I was hoping the light might be worth it. To judge from all the anger I have provoked at numerous LDS or quasi-LDS blogs, it would seem heat is a clear winner at this point. Herewith another attempt at light.

 

I am neither surprised nor offended to have elicited disagreement — in fact, I’m sorry there wasn’t more actual, substantive, disagreement, as opposed to indignant complaints about my tone, my manner, my masculinity, my employer, etc. Here I propose to restate the main stakes of my argument without reference to any persons, and so clearly that those who pretend to be open to rational discussion will have no possible excuse for avoiding the questions I’m raising.

 

In particular, I frankly challenge faithful LDS bloggers at what I had taken on the whole to be faithful LDS blogs (Times & Seasons, By Common Consent, Wheat & Tares, for example) to distinguish themselves — if they wish, that is — from voices on their sites that seem to reject out of hand any attempt (such as mine) to limit the absorption of LDS belief into what I will call “lifestyle liberalism” or “extreme tolerance.” I have to say I had hoped for more substantive discussion from such sites; but my recent experience suggests that, although surely not all principals on these blogs are fully committed lifestyle liberals, they are not at all inclined (or equipped?) to risk the wrath of the “hard left” among their associates and readers. I am reminded of the slogan of the French Popular Front of the 1930s: “Pas d’ennemi à gauche” — that is, no enemy on the left. The effective rule seems to be: we intellectuals of the Mormon Blogosphere will speak no evil of anyone advocating more “tolerance,” more inclusiveness, more concessions to secular culture and politics, more criticism of “orthodoxy” — in fact, we will not even presume to contradict their arguments. But anyone perceived to be more “conservative” is fair game for the harshest and most personal attacks. (It is not surprising then, that people who agree with me, sometimes enthusiastically, find it necessary to communicate privately, choosing not to brave the bullying of the “open-minded” blogs.) I am looking for evidence to contradict this characterization of the LDS Blogs; so far I haven’t found much. But I’m willing to keep looking: hence this invitation.

 

I thank the appreciative readers who have posted at Meridian and particularly the brave readers who dared share a bit of my infamy by posting comments favorable or at least respectful of my arguments at the more, shall we say intellectually ambitious sites such as Times and Seasons or By Common Consent, as well as those women and men who have communicated to me privately their thanks for saying things they felt were important to say. And I also wish to thank and compliment those few writers unfavorable to my views who actually carefully read and directly engaged my arguments in some way.

 

A particularly notable attempt to address my arguments was by Lynette at Zelophehad’s Daughters (reposted at Feminist Mormon Housewives). I have attempted to address Lynette’s main points in the general response below, but let me say in advance that the main thrust of her vigorous objection to my review is that I dare to take exception to Brooks’ positions — in a word, that I dare to argue that Brooks is wrong or misguided about certain things, which in itself makes me “authoritarian” or “condescending,” and which is apparently particularly unseemly because Brooks is a woman and I am not. It is hard to know how to respond to such an objection, except to say that I do not honor the sexist principle that a woman cannot make an argument that a man is allowed to answer, and to point out that anyone who makes an argument generally makes it because he (or she) is proposing the possibility that he is right and thus that whoever disagrees with him is wrong on the point in question. I am not an exception to this rule, but then neither is Lynette or Joanna: they think they are right, and they too, I must say, address the world with some confidence. Like many who prosper in the Mormon blogosphere these days, my respondents are simply not accustomed to having someone contradict their fundamental assumptions. It adds to my sin, I suppose, that I do so rather straightforwardly, which I think is as much for the sake of clarity as it is a sign of confidence. In any case, it would be more useful to respond to my arguments by answering them rather than by complaining that I think I am right.

 

It would be quixotic in the extreme to undertake to address any significant sample of the objections, not to say spirited attacks, that have been leveled against my essay, and in fact against me as a thinker, a teacher, a person. It is clear in fact that both sides in this “conversation” find it easy to feel viscerally that they or their friends are victims of the most unjust personal attacks. Here I think President Uchtdorf’s recent observation is very acute and very important:

 

But when it comes to our own prejudices and grievances, we too often justify our anger as righteous and our judgment as reliable and only appropriate. Though we cannot look into another’s heart, we assume that we know a bad motive or even a bad person when we see one. We make exceptions when it comes to our own bitterness because we feel that, in our case, we have all the information we need to hold someone else in contempt.

If, then, we find it impossible to imagine ourselves into the shoes of those with whom we disagree, I think it just best to suspend the question of motives and to attend to arguments with as much serenity as possible, ready to forget and even to forgive offenses.

 

Overlooking or forgiving offenses is one thing, but judging ideas and arguments and intellectual-political projects is another matter, though, isn’t it? Can this responsibility for intellectual judgment be avoided — without, that is, abandoning the good we find and the greater good we hope for in dialectical exchange about the theory and practice of our faith? To savor spiritual goods “in the tangle of our minds” requires that we reason together, and this in turn requires that we judge as best we can of what is true and false, well-reasoned and not. And how can faithful and responsible reasoning in this area avoid the effort (however hazardous) of taking account of and critiquing ideological paradigms that may well seep into our religious opinions? That, you will have noticed, is what I see myself doing, and one key area where I think I can make a contribution to our reasoning together about our faith.

 

Now, of course, an obvious objection arises here:  but you, Hancock, have your own ideology (“conservative,” I suppose the objector would say), and you are just responding to those you disagree with from that point of view! To be sure this risk is always present. All we can do is beware of the risk, and muster both the virtue and the insight necessary to suspend our ideological inclinations and think around them and through them. The alternative is clearly unacceptable: to accept the relativist premise that our reasoning faculty is enslaved to ideologies or interests from the outset, and so that we are locked in a conflict with no issue, in fact no conceivable issue. This would be a closed world, a cave of all heated conflict and darkness, and I cannot accept that.

 

So judge we must, trying our best to sort ideology from the possibility of Truth, and I do my best with the powers and knowledge I have. And here I might begin to respond to questions that were frequently raised regarding my competence, given my academic discipline, to address a personal memoire such as. I’m not sure the question of credentials is really very important, since the quality of a piece of writing should speak for itself, and the critique of professional credentials is a distraction, and hardly normative in the blogosphere. So I’ll just say this: Political Philosophy, my line of work, is a way of doing philosophy and of thinking about the task of thinking in relation to moral, political and religious claims. The intersection of religion and political ideology is very much a part of this task. And I see no reason for abstaining from critique when this intersection is addressed in the form of a personal memoire, especially when it fairly leaps to the eye that this memoire is no less informed by a public purpose than were Rousseau’s famous Confessions — indeed, more obviously, militantly so. I would have been happy if others, especially women, had stepped in to raise the kinds of questions I thought needed to be raised, but I did not see this happening. I have to rest content with the gratitude and endorsement a number have confided in me privately.

 

I take Rousseau as a kind of founding master of the personal memoire as political strategy. Rousseau aims to weaken traditional moral and religious restraints by exposing his life in all its lurid vicissitudes in order to argue, or to convey the sentiment, that, underneath all the foibles and the miscues, Jean-Jacques Rousseau in his heart of hearts is as innocent as can be. In doing this he proposes himself as an exemplar of the natural goodness of human beings, in opposition to the traditional doctrine of the Fall of Man and to the restrictions and commandments and punishments associated with this doctrine. The implicit lesson is that it is not obedience to divine commands or some traditional conception of virtue but rather authenticity, that is, simply and sincerely being who one is, that is the key to a fully human existence. Similarly (not identically, of course), the Mormon memoire in question bravely exposes a woman’s personal struggles, weakness and foibles (nowhere near as lurid as Jean-Jacques, it should be noted) in order to present her own authentic, sincere personal existence as an alternative to an old-fashioned regard for commandments and for the authority (in her view often hypocritical and even cruel) of those who teach and, in certain cases, verify conformity to these commandments. As in Rousseau’s case, the personal life is advanced as a public lesson, a standard of personal authenticity proposed as a model for other brave souls.

 

As I pointed out at the beginning of my Part Two, feminists often stake their claims by making the personal political. Apparently many believe that this strategy should make an author immune from criticism, but this would be implicitly to accept the reduction of the religious life to the cultivation of personal authenticity. I have no interest in engaging a discussion of anyone’s personal life (or of their Church membership status), but I do not see why I should shrink from a discussion that has more general religious and political stakes.

 

Thus I do not in fact accept the imperative to allow an author “ to be authoritative on her own experience.” We are not — certainly not automatically and always — the supreme authorities on the meaning of our own experience. That is what religious authority is for – to help us get ourselves right and to let us know when we are wrong, even or especially wrong about ourselves. I do not presume to exercise religious authority; I am simply using rational argument defend a certain view of the meaning of religious authority and therefore, necessarily, to criticize the view that personal “authenticity” is the be-all and end-all of human meaning.

 

It is not true, then, that I presumed to “excommunicate” Joanna Brooks. I have made it as clear as can be that I hope she will remain in the Church. I was quoted by Jamie Reno in the Daily Beast as saying that “Joanna’s position on gay marriage is irreconcilable with the church.” This statement of mine, quoted (I have to trust) from a good hour’s wandering discussion with the reporter, was taken by some to mean that I believed Joanna should be excommunicated because she disagreed with me on the political question of the definition of marriage. This is not my position, and I take some responsibility for not being clearer in this sentence in distinguishing between the political and the theological question. I did go on immediately to say that I find it “hard to conceive of calling anything Mormon that relinquishes the importance of sexual difference and procreation in the big, eternal scheme of things.” My primary concern is not with the political question of the civil definition of marriage (though this is an important disagreement I have with Brooks), but with the properly religious question of the place of sexuality in eternity. I believe, following the Church’s Proclamation to the World on the Family, in heterosexuality as an eternal reality and thus an eternal norm. (And thus I think our country is better off reflecting the goodness of the man-woman union in law and policy.) I understand Brooks’ interpretation of the principle that “all are alike unto God” to imply that homosexuality should enjoy all the rights of heterosexuality in this life and in the next — or, perhaps that sexual difference is irrelevant in the next life. In any case, the tendency of her political rhetoric has certainly been to undermine the normativity of heterosexuality, and this is what I oppose, and find incompatible with Church teaching. I have no interest in raising the question of excommunication, but, just as she has a right to argue for a certain understanding of Mormonism, I have a right, and, I think, a duty to point out where I think she is wrong.

 

My problem, then, with liberalism and feminism as a frame of LDS belief does not finally concern specifically political questions. What concerns me is a strong tendency for liberalism to migrate from politics and to penetrate and reshape religious understandings. Thus I argued, based upon evidence from her book, that Joanna Brooks tends very much to make a liberal principle of toleration or non-discrimination (which she hears in the scriptural teaching “all are alike unto God”) into the most fundamental touchstone of religious truth. This accords at a deep level with the tendency of her personal confession and of her defenders’ pleas to make every person, and in particular every woman, the best, most authentic judge of her own experience. On this view, to be truly religious is to be compassionate, and to be compassionate is to acknowledge the legitimacy of each individual’s view of her own good, that is, with moral relativism or an ethic that gives final authority to personal self-expression. For example, since all are alike, then, on this lifestyle-liberal view, not only does God love homosexuals as much as heterosexuals, but he loves homosexuality as much as heterosexuality. Thus “all are alike unto God” is understood to mean that every individual has a sovereign right to define his own good.

 

This formulation of equality of lifestyles under God will no doubt strike some liberal readers as unproblematic, even as obviously sound. And that is exactly my point. Over the last generation liberalism has broadened and absolutized its claims, making equality of worldviews and lifestyles and thus absolute Toleration the only truth, and many political liberals have begun to interpret their religion according to this extreme liberalism, especially where sexual and familial norms are concerned. It seems a large number, even a preponderant number on the more “intellectual” blogs, have convinced themselves that this liberalism is the underlying, latent truth of Mormonism. Such a view is seductive in many ways, including the fact that it seems to justify one’s own or one’s loved one’s behavior, and also that it removes of a vexing obstacle to full membership in the prestigious liberal intelligentsia. And here I come along saying, no, I think not. I state candidly and plainly my view, a view I am confident is shared by the great majority of faithful LDS who are aware of such questions, that there are fundamental differences at the level of basic and essential beliefs between LDS teaching and this boundless late-liberal “toleration.” I confess this seems rather obvious to me, and so I state it straightforwardly, and with some confidence. I have to ask whether you liberal intellectual bloggers really believe, for example, that any of the General Authorities you presumably sustain a few times a year would disagree with this proposition. Understandably, many who have constructed for themselves a different , more “open” view of Mormonism are offended, and find me arrogant, bullying, condescending, etc. I am not sure there would have been any way to raise the questions I’m raising without offending those who are committed to the new, liberal Mormonism.

 

The problem we confront today, and that Joanna Brooks represents in an increasingly popular form, was clearly in evidence in a conversation a friend reported he had had with several liberal Mormon intellectual acquaintances. This person had dared openly to doubt whether Mormonism could survive full acceptance of gay marriages. They attacked him for questioning one of their articles of faith. Their attitude toward matters of gender does not only include an acceptance of continuing revelation and of the possibility that the Church could someday give women the priesthood and perform same-sex temple marriages; instead, they are convinced that the Church WILL do those things, and this has become part of their testimony. Given this state of affairs, anyone contradicting such liberalized testimony, even in a most moderate and reasonable tone, can only be perceived by the liberal blogosphere as threatening, and thus as arrogant, condescending, and, of course, inevitably,“snarky.”

 

This tendency of a late-liberal conception of justice, and the corresponding virtues of toleration and compassion, to become theologically foundational for a significant number of Mormon believers, especially among those who consider themselves intellectually accomplished, goes far towards explaining a profound imbalance or asymmetry that one finds in the LDS blogosphere. It is remarkable how rare and mild are any objections, even among the more moderate bloggers, to more radical claims to personal freedom and to borderless definitions of Mormonism. In such cases, an ethic of sympathetic understanding and inclusiveness reigns supreme. On the other hand, as I have found by hard experience, anyone who dares affirm a more … what shall I call it? “traditional” or “conservative” understanding of the faith, especially where feminism and sexuality are concerned, is likely immediately to be classified as offensive, uncaring, beyond the pale, especially if this person happens to bear the burden of a Y chromosome. This is the structural asymmetry I referred to above that results effectively in the “pas d’ennemi à gauche” policy. This is the “openness” that seems for the most part to characterize even what I had not long ago taken to be the more faithful, moderate and responsible Bloggernacle. To be sure, this attitude may be applied in perfect sincerity, since openness to a diversity of views and practices does not operate as a formal principle of deliberation — a way of considering questions —but as a substantive principle, as the answer we know in advance. However sincere, though, such a frame of discussion can only lead more and more bloggers and their readers further away from the distinctive, substantive commitments of the Church.

 

It has been objected, reasonably, to my critique of Brooks that I use the term “feminism” rather loosely and attribute to her positions that she nowhere articulates. Fair enough. The problem is that, for all her insistence on her feminism, Brooks herself gives us precious little help in defining what the term means. In any case, this, I find, is a common problem in engaging feminists: they tend to use the term broadly and vaguely to be as inclusive as possible (“Mormon women matter”), and when one objects to some application or implication, they deny that it applies to their understanding of feminism.

 

Despite almost infinite variations in the precise meaning of “feminism,” there is clearly a strong tendency towards the ideal (explicit or implicit) of a gender-neutral society – that is, a society in which family roles, careers and positions and in principle all desirable social outcomes are equally available to men and women, and thus in which men and women are equally represented in all careers and public positions. This may appear unobjectionable on its face, but it begs the question who will devote most time to the direct care of children. To the chagrin, apparently, of many “progressive” LDS bloggers, The Family Proclamation does not shrink from taking a position on this controversial topic:

 

By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners.

 

Here is a marvelously clear and concise statement of sex roles that are equally esteemed, but also clearly differentiated. Church leaders wisely allow for families’ adaptation to particular circumstance, but they also consistently warn women against putting careers above their distinctive role in the nurturing of children. (Notably, a recent General Conference address counseled members against judging women who work outside the home.) But the Proclamation’s unmistakable endorsement of motherhood is vital counsel, I think, at a time when many full-time mothers and home-makers feel disdained by society in general and by more visibly “successful” women in particular. Now, there is no doubt that motherhood is very important to Joanna Brooks, but I wonder whether she and her feminist defenders fully embrace the role differentiation and emphasis on children that are clearly reflected in the Proclamation?

 

Whatever, exactly, is meant by feminism, according to its various versions, a common theme is certainly the objection to certain possibilities being open to men that are not open, or less open, to women. Is it not a universal feature of feminism to claim for women certain privileges or opportunities or positions that have been reserved or mostly reserved to men, and to measure progress by the standard of equal (at least) statistical representation of women? Does this not imply a vision of a gender-neutral society, and tend practically in that direction? Please, feminists, take this as an honest question, and show me where my assumptions or my logic is mistaken. In any case, it is clear that Joanna Brooks felt slighted as a girl by differences in the way boys and girls were treated – most notably in respect to the Priesthood – and that she continues to chafe at such differences. In my review, I indulged some anthropological speculations about male and female acculturation, only to illustrate the rather obvious possibility that there are good reasons to raise boys (and thus to motivate them by honoring and rewarding them) in different ways from girls. In fact, the differentiation of boys from girls may be essential, it seems to me (and not only to me), to the formation of a productive and responsible male identity. But the argument was necessarily merely illustrative and incomplete. I stand only on the main point that there is no compelling reason, apart from feminist ideology, to assume that boys and girls should be treated the same in every respect.

 

In any case, Joanna Brooks, like so many other Mormon feminists, is very much preoccupied, not only with social inequities in this world, but also or especially with what she regards as eternal inequalities that, in Mormon teaching, limit women’s possibilities and show favoritism towards men: that men hold the Priesthood, and that women bear children. She is worried, notably, about the eternal burden that pregnancy and child-bearing, essential natural characteristics of femininity, seem to put upon God’s female children, and seems to feel slighted that our Mother in Heaven does not get as much public recognition as our Father.

 

Here we are at the heart, I think, of the liberal feminists’ discomfort with basic Mormon teaching. This discomfort arises from what they perceive as an eternal inequity regarding women that is grounded in the conventional or mainstream understanding of the role of sexual difference in the eternities. It is hard to see how this feeling of inequity, this implicit claim to equality as gender neutrality, might be assuaged without sacrificing something essential in the LDS understanding of the corporeality of divinity and the centrality of fecundity to eternal lives.

 

Is this understanding “fair” to women? Can any understanding satisfy modern claims of fairness as long as it differentiates between male and female roles, either in this world or the next? Here, when speculating about the eternities, it is particularly appropriate to acknowledge the extreme limitations of our knowledge. I certainly do not know the meaning of all things: I do not claim to understand the eternal operation of the priesthood in relation to manhood and fatherhood on the one hand and womanhood and motherhood on the other; I am taught that exalted beings are embodied, but I do not know how parenthood works in celestial spheres — whether or how often, for example, a celestial mother’s belly swells with new life as my mother’s did with mine. Nor do I know in what way an Eternal Queen might defer to her King, or in what way she might yet rule his heart.

 

I do not know just how the mysterious and life-giving equality in difference that obtains between the sons of Adam and the daughters of Eve is lived and understood by those exalted to celestial spheres. I do not know just how it is that, through the power of the Atonement, “everlasting dominion” can be exercised “without compulsory means,” or just how this dominion can be articulated into male and female spheres without diminishing either dominion. But I trust it is so, would strive to prove worthy, in partnership with my wife, to enjoy the fruits of such righteous and non-compulsory dominion.

 

I do know that when we claim a certain status as a “right” — not as part of a covenant the terms of which are set by God, but on our own terms, and thus by envious comparison with the “rights” we see others as enjoying — I know that such claims can never bring us goods that transcend our worldly demands, goods that surprise us, that delight us, that enrich us with eternal lives. And I am confident and grateful that, when we see as we are seen, we will be truly equal in the only way that matters, and therefore in no way concerned with equality as measured by the competitive vanity of this world. And I worry that, if we do not learn to subordinate our notions of political and social equality to the promise of the distinct eternal blessings of manhood and womanhood, if we spend this time of probation envying the perceived privileges of the other sex, then the earth, as far as we are concerned, will be “utterly wasted at His coming.”

 

81 Responses to “Mormonism and Liberal Authenticity: A Reply to Critics”

  • Kristine:

    “I wish more people who disagree with the Church’s stand on Proclamation-related issues would engage the ideas head-on.”

    What would this look like? And is the current discussion somehow oblique?

  • I’ll take a quick stab at this, although since Wheat & Tares was viewed as (on the whole) “faithful” but not categorized “intellectually ambitious,” I’ll do my best to keep up. :)

    I’ve been reading Jonathan Haidt’s book The Righteous Mind, and in his discussion of the five moral foundations he talks about the data that shows that for those who are most liberal leaning, they score very high for only 2 of them (care/harm, fairness/equality), but not high for the remaining 3 (loyalty/betrayal, authority/subversion, sanctity/degredation). Conservatives tend to score equally for all of them. A sixth foundation was added: liberty/oppression, and both groups dislike oppression but feel oppressed by very different things. Tea Partiers for example consider government intervention oppressive (“Don’t tread on me”) while liberals sometimes consider American government’s actions to be oppressive to other nations. For those who score very high on the care/harm front, they sometimes see people as victims who don’t see themselves as victims. When it comes to fairness, liberals (according to Haidt’s who is one and has studied tens of thousands of survey results) are universalist and tend to desire equality of outcomes, while conservatives are more protective of the health of their in-group than the world at large. Both groups care about fairness but see different people as “free riders” and “cheaters”: liberals see those with power as the most dangerous (due to their low authority & loyalty foundations and extra-high care foundation) but conservatives see those who receive more from the system than they contribute to the system as the “cheaters” (different definition of fairness and liberty).

    The key is that both groups (liberals & conservatives) are acting on their strongly held convictions. They are both acting in good faith. But they really do espouse different values. I grew up in a ward where many of our leaders were very strongly left-leaning. Can you be a liberal Democrat and be a “good” Mormon? In my experience, yes you can.

    One point that is valid, though, is that because of these differences in moral foundations, liberals will sometimes be seen as subversive, disloyal, too accepting of outsiders (and apostates and other dangerous influences), and also quixotically trying to rescue victims (or educate people why they are victims even when they don’t think they are). And attempts to squelch their voice will be considered oppressive, especially when the source is someone with more power – and obviously, that includes Ralph Hancock. (I do wonder if Gladys Knight could have written this critique with more success – hard to imagine her doing so, though).

    The problem the church faces, IMO, is that we as a church can’t be intolerant of liberals or define them out of the fold. Conservatives are secure enough; you couldn’t have a church without those additional three moral foundations (authority, loyalty, and purity) – those are the things that make the church an enduring structure. But we do need to (also) listen to those who are more attuned (even hyper-sensitive) to care issues and who define equality differently and more broadly. We might find some common ground in the process. As Stephen Hopkins said: “I’ve never heard of an idea so dangerous that it couldn’t be discussed.”

    We should all listen better when we hear an alternate viewpoint. Conservatives should listen when liberals talk about equality and charity – and clearly many of our leaders do. Liberals should listen when conservatives talk about the value of traditions that bind the group (while still respecting individual expression), giving heed to authority (without turning off your own personal revelation or mind), having high standards for membership (while refraining from oppression).

  • Michael:

    “Is it possible that you really think that anyone reading this imagines that there is anything a liberal mormon could say that would cause you to believe otherwise?”

    Brad, I’m still waiting for you to engage the specific issues and points that Dr. Hancock has brought up repeatedly. If you can engage the issues without resorting to hyperbolic claims to sensitivity, then I’m willing to listen.

    I’m still waiting for any liberal Mormon to do so, and do it without complaining about “tone”, “meanness”, etc.

    In fact, I think we’re all still waiting for a real rebuttal of Dr. Hancock’s points that doesn’t depend on a rebuttal of Dr. Hancock personally.

  • small star:

    Ralph Hancock bases his entire argument from a paradoxical paragraph from the Proclamation, which declares “By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners.”. There’s quite a bit of wriggle room in these three sentences — most tellingly, men and women are explicitly “equal partners.”. The “I Am A Mormon” ads do not showcase women who stay at home, by and large. The only stay-at-home mother ad I could find lived in Paris and worked as a free-lance translator. An opthamologist, an artist, a longboard champion, and a mayor, women all, proudly proclaim that they’re Mormon.

    The church is not sexist. The proclamation is not sexist. Ralph hancock, loudly and proudly, is.

  • Matthew Crowley:

    It is very often difficult to engage on issues such as this directly on their merits. People have how they approach their religion (or not) so close to the core of their identity that it is difficult not to take the arguments personally. There is always something at stake about ourselves. It is also very difficult to resist the temptation to claim aggrieved status, though both sides often can. For example, Mr. Hancock’s observation that among liberals “no enemy to the left” seems to be an unspoken rule is, in my opinion as someone who sits on the left, very often true. But it is equally true that inside the chapel “no enemy on the right” is also an unspoken rule and frequently complained of among liberals. My perception is that apologetics is not a familiar area to Mr. Hancock, that he is not accustomed to engaging with those who strongly disagree and for that reason may have been caught off guard that some of his remarks were received as condescending or rude when he did not intend them that way. I take all that as a given and say it with sympathy to him. Of course, these observations are interesting but bring us nowhere near the heart of the issue. So I would like to try to take up Mr. Hancock’s offer to engage on substantive grounds only.

    First, what are the issues at the heart of this debate? It is human sexuality and gender roles, no? Mr. Hancock critiques liberalism, as he defines that term, as having made tolerance the highest of all virtues, such that virtually anything might be tolerated and anyone seeking to say that the tolerance has “gone to far” has run afoul of this most fundamental or principles. But this takes the argument far past any evidence to be found in Ms. Brooks’ book and far past where the argument belongs. This is not an argument about whether a person can only be viewed with tolerance and as being their most authentic self if what they enjoy most is being a con artist or a pyromaniac. This argument is much more narrow. This is an argument about (in no particular order) whether (1) what everyone now seems to agree is an immutable characteristic for most people, their sexuality, is best understood through the current teachings of the church, whether the church may have anything to learn through or from LGBTQ people on this issue and whether the church might ever change its position as respects them and (2) whether the roles of women are best understood through current church teachings, whether the church may have anything to learn through or from women on this issue and whether the church might ever change as respects them.

    I am sympathetic to both sides of this. We have on the one hand Ms. Brooks saying (I summarize very broadly hoping not to do her too much injustice) that the way the church approaches LGBTQ persons and roles of women does not match up to the highest and best ideas and ideals of morality and justice as those things are conceived in the modern world, nor the best ideas found within Mormon teachings. Modern liberal notions of morality rest primarily on some form of utilitarianism, fairness or both. Here I wish to focus on the roles of women, since that is what the latest piece seems to focus most on, though most everything I will say here can be applied equally to LGBTQ issues. In light of modern conceptions of morality, it seems intuitive to the modern mind that it is right and good that women contribute to government, business, science, art, the academy and the blessings to humanity of their involvement there seem manifest. The modern mind, far from thinking that families and children are unimportant, believes that the rearing and nurturing of children is the primary responsibility of parents, not simply of mothers. The idea that that God wishes the above mentioned fields to be the province mostly of men and that child rearing be mainly that of women runs counter to the experience of humanity, as viewed from that side of the argument, with the rightness, fairness, happiness and contributions brought to the world by the contributions of women to all fields, and the benefits brought to children and families by men being acclimated to believe that parenting is a shared responsibility and that they are equally capable of, and responsible for, child rearing and nurture.

    Mr. Hancock seems to at least somewhat acknowledge the seeming unfairness of this. But his rejoinder is elegant and powerful: the Mormon Church is hierarchical, its leaders speak with the authority of God and what Ms. Brooks is describing is simply not what they are teaching. And here we have the classic showdown between the teachings of God and the doctrines of men. Or do we? Is that really what this is? THIS to me is the issue that is up for grabs. I think that even the most conservative and orthodox of Mormons is forced to say that God could by revelation command anything. Whatever God commands is right and even from that very orthodox perspective scripture and history are replete with examples, including some recent ones, of Gods will as expressed through His leaders changing. That is the power and the optimism of the Mormonism Ms. Brooks symbolizes. On the other hand, just because something is possible does not mean it is likely. Even the most unorthodox and liberal of Mormons cannot easily articulate how, theologically, the Proclamation on the Family can be reversed either as to the rights and roles of LGBTQ persons or the rights and roles of women. While anything could be backed away from in theory, it is not at all easy to see how it can happen in this case. Though many still argue it is nevertheless possible. Who is right? Time will tell. As an aid to thinking about how doctrines evolve and change over time in the church, I cannot commend enough the excellent piece done by Prof.Nate Oman which I link here: http://nboman.people.wm.edu/What%20is%20CD%20–%20Element.pdf

    In the mean time, here is what is practically at stake and what most of the emotional pushing back and forth seems to be about. Ms. Brooks and the movement she symbolizes are not solely, nor even primarily I don’t think, about the business of pressuring the hierarchy into changing. They are attempting to simply live their Mormon lives and profess their Mormon beliefs as though the changes they desire have already occurred. A change at the grass roots. Can this type of Mormon coexist with the kind of traditional Mormonism that Mr. Hancock symbolizes here? Is there a place for them both at the table? Should traditional Mormons view these others as a threat or should they consider seriously that their ideas might represent, even if just in part, the future of the church and at least tolerate them as brothers and sisters?

    I don’t have a crystal ball so I have no idea how this will play out. On the one hand the church and its members believe very strongly in the priesthood and the authority of their leaders. The church has made clear statements on these issues. Not only that, but the Mormon canon is fairly replete with references and warnings about the philosophies of men, false prophets and the dangers inherent in disobedience. And yet, a growing number of Mormons are increasingly finding these teachings at odds with their own fundamental sense of right and wrong and what larger western society believes are its best and most noble ideals are on their side. The theological question may take decades to resolve. The question of dealing with this difference in view is the work for all Mormons right now.

  • John Swenson Harvey:

    RE: john f.:
    May 9, 2012 at 6:52 am

    Thank you!

  • hawkgrrrl, just wanted to give you a shout out. That was a fabulous, insightful comment.

  • The development of this comment thread here is particularly ironic, given that one of Ralph Hancock’s initial complaints was this

    “I am reminded of the slogan of the French Popular Front of the 1930s: “Pas d’ennemi à gauche” — that is, no enemy on the left. The effective rule seems to be: we intellectuals of the Mormon Blogosphere will speak no evil of anyone advocating more “tolerance,” more inclusiveness, more concessions to secular culture and politics, more criticism of “orthodoxy” — in fact, we will not even presume to contradict their arguments. But anyone perceived to be more “conservative” is fair game for the harshest and most personal attacks.”

    This earnest plea has followed by a comment thread here in which commenters have labeled me, Brad, Joanna, and others as arrogant, hypocrites, Godbeites, inauthentic, kool-aid-drinking, whiny, childish . . . um, did I miss any?

    One might even suggest a corollary to Professor Hancock’s description — that the denizens of this site will speak no evil of anyone who criticizes Joanna Brooks, or who argues that Joanna or Brad or me or others are Not The Right Kind of Mormons. A policy of “no enemy on the right,” so to speak, where “anyone perceived to be less “conservative” is fair game for the harshest and most personal attacks.”

    If Ralph Hancock is really interested in the civility concerns that he raised in the opening post, then he and the site administrators here can begin by responding to the repeated name-calling that has taken place in comments on this thread.

  • “and that only American politically conservative views are truly compatible with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

    I’m not sure I agree with this interpretation of his post. I don’t think his post is fundamentally about politics.

    I think also the Brethren have made it clear that there are principles compatible with the gospel in all major political parties, so that should be a non-issues.

    That said, I think the mentioning of politics sort of muddied the message of the post, so I can see why you are going that route. But I think there is more to it.

  • “One might even suggest a corollary to Professor Hancock’s description — that the denizens of this site will speak no evil of anyone who criticizes Joanna Brooks,”

    I don’t think this is a fair characterization, Kaimi. My personal take on this is that I wish the discussion could have been engaged in without mentioning of any names or websites. And I do agree with you that some of the labels that have been thrown out have been unkind and unfortunate. (I mentioned such a concern in my earlier comment, fwiw.)

    But still, I feel like this kind of ‘he’s meaner than we are’ still continues to miss the ideas that no one really seems to want to address. And this is a common pattern when such ideas are brought up in the online realm. It happens both within the Mormon blogosphere (on both ends of the political spectrum) and in the larger culture as well. It’s become really hard to talk about ideas because there is so much mudslinging going on. And that’s something that bothers me in general, not just among ‘liberals.’

    We definitely need to all learn how to talk without attacking people personally. But I think we also all need to be able to get to the point where we can talk about ideas without them being so personal.

  • “What would this look like?”

    Matthew Crowley’s comment to me is a good example of such an effort. Thanks, Matthew.

  • “Is there a place for them both at the table? Should traditional Mormons view these others as a threat or should they consider seriously that their ideas might represent, even if just in part, the future of the church and at least tolerate them as brothers and sisters?”

    I think our doctrine demands treating all within the Church as brothers and sisters. I think where it gets tricky is where such treatment is equated to (almost demand to be) apologizing for the Church’s position or for one’s beliefs. And I’ve seen that happen. Tolerance really does have to go both ways. (And I know sometimes church culture can be the worst at not allowing people to have opinions and to be where they are, so I’m definitely not just pointing at ‘liberals’ (I hate labels, I really do, but I’m using what has already been used here simply for discussion’s sake).

    “And yet, a growing number of Mormons are increasingly finding these teachings at odds with their own fundamental sense of right and wrong and what larger western society believes are its best and most noble ideals are on their side. The theological question may take decades to resolve. The question of dealing with this difference in view is the work for all Mormons right now.”

    I feel very strongly about giving people the space to worship according to the dictates of their own conscience, and I think that is some of what you are driving at in your comment. Agency is as central to our doctrine as marriage is, and I think those passionate about the Proclamation teachings can sometimes forget that. I think there were several talks in Conference that addressed this — the need to be more loving.

    However, I think there is a flip side to this. You make the point that:

    “They are attempting to simply live their Mormon lives and profess their Mormon beliefs as though the changes they desire have already occurred. ”

    This may be the crux of the problem. I do disagree with you re: whether there are some honestly trying to agitate for change (my experience has suggested otherwise), even in such a situation, such people may honestly be trying to act on what they believe to be true.

    But I try to imagine if this approach you describe (living at though something had happened that hasn’t happened (and may never happen)) were done in context of the laws of the land. It may not be a perfect comparison, but I think it could illustrate the kind of threat than many in the Church can feel with such an approach. Going back to your first point I quoted above, I think treating someone like a threat is wrong, but neither should be unacceptable to be able to express concerns about such an approach.

    That said (I like you can see ‘both sides’ of this), I do think that too often the more ‘mainstream’ voices can too often speak in ways that don’t really do such expression with the Spirit and with genuine love. (If we treat someone as a threat, they really aren’t a person in our minds, but an object.) But that, too, can go both ways. People should not assume that just because someone is speaking up for more mainstream points of view that they are treating someone as an object. And I think if any good is to come of the differences of opinion, we have to learn how to talk to each other and keep hearts open toward each other in spite of differences. The online world can facilitate this, or entrench us further into our ‘camps.’

  • **The problem the church faces, IMO, is that we as a church can’t be intolerant of liberals or define them out of the fold. Conservatives are secure enough; you couldn’t have a church without those additional three moral foundations (authority, loyalty, and purity) – those are the things that make the church an enduring structure. But we do need to (also) listen to those who are more attuned (even hyper-sensitive) to care issues and who define equality differently and more broadly. **

    Too irenic by half. The experience of the mainline Protestant denominations is that when you open up to liberals, you start to bleed conservatives. Which isn’t surprising. Using your Haidt framework, between the view that X is important and the view that X is a dnagerous subversion of the things that really matter, there isn’t a lot of common ground.

    Consider that your view that common ground and accomodation are necessarily possible and intrinsically desirable is itself a liberal view.

  • Just wanted to praise Hawkgrrrl.

  • I posted this quote over at BCC and then I thought, what the heck, lets see how it flies here. From Robert S Wood in Conference a few years back:

    “I recall that as a graduate student I wrote a critique of an important political philosopher. It was clear that I disagreed with him. My professor told me that my paper was good, but not good enough. Before you launch into your criticism, she said, you must first present the strongest case for the position you are opposing, one that the philosopher himself could accept. I redid the paper. I still had important differences with the philosopher, but I understood him better, and I saw the strengths and virtues, as well as limitations, of his belief. I learned a lesson that I’ve applied across the spectrum of my life.”

    Hancock — at least in the Meridian articles and subsequent blog posts on the Brooks kerfuffle — has at no point made a serious attempt to frame any “liberal” arguments, however one defines the term, in such a way that a self-identified liberal might be expected to pause and say “he’s right — that’s exactly what I believe”. Instead it’s a parade of strawmen that no liberal would claim as their own. To make a reductive comparison, if I told you “You’re dumb and I hate you” and you responded angrily or sarcastically, I’m hardly justified in claiming that you never adequately rebutted my argument about your intelligence. Hancock likewise wants liberals to respond to arguments and premises on his terms only. Why should they? You can’t call for higher level of discourse and then (paraphrasing Nibley) immediately proceed to lower the bar. Try again, Ralph.

  • Administrative question: When I comment, a photo of what looks like a child wearing a blue hat shows up next to my name. Does anyone know how that happened? It’s not a photo of me, nor have I ever seen that photo before. Most other commenters have white and grey silhouettes. Of those with a photo, I recognize one to be actually of the individual in question. Thanks.

  • Dan:

    Adam,

    The experience of the mainline Protestant denominations is that when you open up to liberals, you start to bleed conservatives.

    Are conservatives that fickle? Really? What a shame. liberals must put up with conservatives, but the moment liberals show up, conservatives flee.

  • Robert Couch:

    Ralph, this is a nicely written response — well done.

    You may be interested in this comment I wrote, trying to guess how you — or others defending a position similar to yours — would answer questions that were posed to you. I also urged others (including myself, first and foremost!) to actually read your book, since you have read Joanna’s, and to engage the arguments in your book more seriously.

  • Adam G: “Too irenic by half. The experience of the mainline Protestant denominations is that when you open up to liberals, you start to bleed conservatives.” By which half? The half accepting of people whose politics you don’t like? I don’t agree with either political party entirely. But I’m not willing to cut off half of the human race from eternal life based on politics alone. There are attitudes in both ends of the political spectrum that seem offensive to God and harmful to the church’s interests.

    “Which isn’t surprising. Using your Haidt framework, between the view that X is important and the view that X is a dangerous subversion of the things that really matter, there isn’t a lot of common ground.” It’s the incivility of these viewpoints that is problematic; they are not truths, just inflexible perspectives.

    “Consider that your view that common ground and accomodation are necessarily possible and intrinsically desirable is itself a liberal view.” As soon as the church declares that Democrats are unwelcome and uses Voter Registration Cards as a proxy for Temple Recommends, I’ll cede this.

    Going back to reasonable ground, I don’t believe the church has to cede any doctrinal ground to be kinder to homosexuals and their LDS families who love them, or to engage women more as equals. The church is less partisan than its members.

  • Mike B.:

    Bro. Hancock, my wife and I thought this was just really good. Thank you.

  • Ryan:

    Hancock nailed it.

    One of the main flaws I see is the failure to distinguish between a liberal individual being “accepted” and a liberal’s liberal ideas being accepted. I think if liberals within the LDS Church were honest they’d admit that conservative Mormons are very accepting of liberal individuals. What they will not, and should not, tolerate are liberals’ attempts to redefine, denigrate or change the Gospel as revealed through chosen prophets.

  • Dan:

    Ryan,

    What they will not, and should not, tolerate are liberals’ attempts to redefine, denigrate or change the Gospel as revealed through chosen prophets.

    Why should liberals tolerate conservatives’ attempts to redefine, denigrate, or change the Gospel as revealed through chosen prophets?

  • Jared:

    Very informative writing by the post’s author. I certainly appreciated the last few paragraphs especially. Perhaps hardest to comment on, and strangest to me, is that apparently some people actually can conceptualize that there is a God, that He is eternal, that He is good, merciful, and just, and so on… but that somehow the nature He created doesn’t quite work together right- that is somehow women are seen to be slighted in some predestined, eternal way.
    (By the way, this is just focused on that conceptualization just referenced- that I actually heard of previous to ever hearing of Joanna Brooks- it has nothing particularly to do with her writings or how they’ve been referenced here)
    I like how heterosexual marriage was referenced as an eternal norm. I sometimes am lured into thinking that, just because those who support homosexual ‘marriage’ are wrong and the truth is the truth, that it doesn’t need me to defend it. So I’m glad for a place to post my convictions as stated.

  • John Swenson Harvey:

    Well myself (very very briefly) a few others, and john f on May 9, 2012 at 6:52 am (very completely and masterfully) have responded as requested. Not one bit of actual response or constructive engagement by either the OP or any of the “conservative commentators” as a result. Although Michelle provides a commentary which I would describe as an attempt to bridge the gap.

    I think the claimed desire for “light” on the OP’s part is a pile of horse pucky.

  • Tracy Allred:

    To state, in my mind, the strongest case for the position they oppose, the challenge for the faithful LDS “left” in this discussion reduces to the following:

    1. The Church has clearly spoken out against the practice of homosexuality and gay marriage as a matter of doctrine in The Proclamation on the Family and elsewhere.
    2. For faithful LDS members who sustain Church leaders, this represents divine truth.
    3. Therefore, to reject this doctrine is either to
    a. reject divine truth, and/or
    b. reject the Church and it’s leaders (that is, they reject the leaders and the Church as uninspired for wrongly proclaiming as divine truth that which is not divine truth).

    For those in 3a, they find themselves at odds with God, divine truth, and the Church. For those in 3b, they find themselves at odds with the Church and its leaders. If the former, no amount of discussion/argument will change the divine truth; if the latter, then the Church and its leaders are not what they claim and no amount of discussion/argument will change that either. (For example, even if the Church was persuaded to change its position on these issues so as to conform to a popular will it would then still be – and even more proven to be – an uninspired organization entitled to no more authoritative weight than any other person, organization, or church.)

    Bottom line, for the faithful LDS “left”, what purpose is to be served by openly opposing the Church on these or other such doctrinal issues?

  • John Swenson Harvey:

    Mr. Allred,

    The Church has stated that sex outside of marriage (with a man or a woman, by a man or women) is sin. The faithful left do not dispute that. What does not logically follow is that civil and human rights should be denied to people who are not even members of the Church as a result of the stated doctrine. We do not live in a theocracy. The Constitution should protect both a believing LDS and the non-believing homosexual. I see no doctrinally justifiable reason to attempt force others to conform to our view of the world.

    The Church has finally stated that being a homosexual has no bearing on either the membership status or the worthiness of a Church member. Why do the “conservative” members of the Church insist on trying to push the Church, and other members, past that point?

    With respect to your 1,2, and 3 arguments, 3 does not logically follow from 1 and 2., rather it is an *assumption* that one can not agree with points 1 and 2 without agreeing that granting homosexuals equal rights under the law would be a bad thing. That supposition does not follow. What point 3 should have been: 3. Therefore the Church must chose whether to try to impose that “divine truth” on the rest of society or not. 3a. impose it – follow Satan’s plan of denying mankind moral agency. or 3b. don’t impose it – follow the scripture’s advice (Articles of Faith, now in the Pearl of Great Price) “. . .letting all men worship . . .how . . they may.”

  • Tracy Allred:

    Mr. Harvey:

    I appreciate your response to my post of 21 May. In an effort to help clarify what I see as two different issues in our posts, and so that as a result we don’t speak past each other, I offer the following.

    My original post spoke to the issue of what purpose is served by faithful members of the Church speaking out openly against doctrinal positions taken by the Church. Your response, if I properly understood it, is that the faithful “left” are not doing so. Rather, you say they are speaking out against the faithful “right” using that doctrine as a basis for opposing same sex marriage in the political arena.

    My post focused on what I saw as an effort by the faithful “left” to criticize and change the doctrine. And, as to that issue, I feel point 3 does properly follow from points 1 and 2 and I continue to question what worthwhile purpose is served by faithful members challenging Church doctrine. Leaving the political aspect out, would you agree that doing so serves no worthwhile purpose?

    As to the political aspect your response raises, I see an issue much broader than the one I was addressing. I would frame it as follows: is it proper for an individual to exercise their political speech/franchise rights solely based on the doctrines of their faith? Assuming this is a proper framing of your issue, and I ask that you correct me if I have misstated it from your perspective, I would answer with a definite yes. To do otherwise would place an improper religious test or limitation on an individual’s First Amendment rights. And, further, it would be most impractical to enforce as there is no means to properly assess a person’s basis for how they exercise their political speech/franchise rights.

    More can clearly be said, but this is an issue that is widely discussed far beyond the Mormon blogosphere and is often characterized as: is it proper for those informed by their faith to be heard in the public square? What are your thoughts?

    You seem to suggest that laws against homosexuality and same sex marriage work to deny mankind of moral agency. I question that. Adding consequences to choices (i.e. criminal or civil penalties) does not deny one of their moral agency. They can still choose. God imposes consequences to our choices. In doing so do you feel he has denied us moral agency?

    I appreciate and welcome your thoughts.

  • John Swenson Harvey:

    Mr. Allred,

    Regardless of both our efforts to communicate (and I appreciate you are making an effort here) I think we are still in disagreement about what we are attempting to talk about.

    You seem to see certain statements as merely repeating Church “doctrine” however I do not agree the interpretation you ascribe to the Church’s position (i.e., how you are interpreting The Proclamation) correctly describes actual doctrine. To be clear I think the principles laid out in the The Proclamation and in the Church’s Handbook are correct, but I don’t think all of what you (or the original poster) state regarding the issues raised therein are correct. As a result you seem to view the actions of the “faithful Left” as being a rejection of prophetic/God’s commands, while I see the actions of the “faithful Right” being an attempt to twist the actual stated doctrine into something much more restrictive and antagonistic than it is. The result of that differing view point is that (to go back to your post number 1) you see point 3 as being a logical progression of 1 and 2, while I see it as an additional assumption.

    I suggest we examine and think about two historical causes (from Church history) which I think can help illuminate the current issue. Considering the actions and consequences associated with these two causes I think will “shed some light” on the role of both Church members and outside forces in shaping revealed doctrine.

    First, polygamy, the Church taught this for years (and technically still does), we as a people fought the government over this issue from the early 1850s onward. With the Manifesto we stopped the concurrent practice, but still fought for decades over the status of previous marriages. This was a case where our beliefs were the ones in the cross hairs of the law. I’m pretty sure many of our Church’s opponents at that time would agree 100% with your statement that they were simply setting the terms of the law, not determining what we could do because: “Adding consequences to choices (i.e. criminal or civil penalties) does not deny one of their [*the Church's or its members] moral agency.” [*Parenthetical added by me.] In this case the Church eventually stopped doing plural marriages concurrently, but continued to authorize them when a wife died, or in the eternities (according to the Handbook and D&C 132). My point here is that government policy dramatically changed the practices of the Church (in my mind for the good, but that’s a different issue). Likewise our advocating for restrictive government policies/laws will force people to do things they don’t want to do, or will not allow them to do things they want to do. Just like the Church was forced on the polygamy issue. It also will continue to validate the concept that government force with respect to how you conduct the most personal aspects of your life is legitimate. That alone is such a sobering precedent that many would oppose the proposed (anti-gay ) laws on just that principle by itself.
    Second, the Priesthood and Temple Ban for the blacks (until 1978). In this case many faithful members (likely on on the “left”) advocated in opposition to official Church policy for many many decades that the Ban was not of God but of man and that it ought to be reversed. Eventually it was, and even Elder McConkie stated that all that had been written in the past by himself and other Church authorities which had supported the Ban had been in err. So yes I think this shows that there is a very constructive role for “Faithful” members (of either the Right or the Left) to advocate for progressive change in the church. To further clarify, since Joseph Smith ordained (or had ordained) faithful black men to the M. Priesthood, and called at least one of them as a Traveling Elder (not just a missionary, but a traveling authority), and called another as a branch president, it is clear that the Restoration got it right and then men later got it wrong with respect to this issue. (Interestingly the Church ordained the sons of the man called as Traveling Elder to the Priesthood after the policy was in place – in Utah in the 1850s and 60s – but eventually, in the late 1800s, refused to ordain his grandsons. Also he and his wife were never sealed (although hopefully they have been done now). The brother went through the Kirkland Temple but he was on a mission when the Nauvoo Temple was operating, and died (in the mission field) before a Utah temple was available and the Church leaders refused to let his wife do the sealing after that. While there were many forces at work which eventually led President Kimball to ask God for permission to change the policy, one of those forces was the righteous efforts of faithful members who worked against the Ban.

    I have no issue with religious people in general expressing their views and advocating for laws, BUT I do think the result of that advocacy can be problematic when we attempt to establish (in effect) a theocratic state. The Constitution has great potential to define a society where the Church and its members are protected in exercising their beliefs, but when we go overboard and start to impose our beliefs on others it opens the door for us to lose our freedoms when others gain a majority at the ballot box. It is a dangerous slippery slope to try to maintain the position of keeping government regulation out of my life and religious practices but at the same time wanting to impose government regulation on everyone who disagrees with me. I don’t think that is a viable long run strategy. Rather I think one has to articulate a clear public policy purpose regarding the issue at hand (and one’s religious beliefs will likely influence that argument) and then advocate on a policy basis. Now when one thinks about the issue of gay marriage in general the question is not can we keep gay couples from living with each other, it is: How does society want to integrate these couples into the fabric of society? The couples will exist regardless.

  • Tracy Allred:

    Mr. Harvey:

    Again, thank you for your response: this time yours of 29 May to mine of 24 May. There is much to say, but I will seek to be succinct.

    You reference two causes as instructive: polygamy and the now lifted ban on blacks receiving the priesthood. I agree they are instructive, but see a different lesson to be learned than do you.

    Polygamy. If I understand your position correctly, you feel the societal majority and the courts were wrong in outlawing polygamy. And, as a substantive matter, I agree with that. However, because that result came as a product of the established constitutional process, to which the Lord deferred as evidenced by the language of the manifesto, I conclude that the Lord approves that process, though it may at times get the result wrong. In short, I conclude from this that it is proper for the voice of the people (i.e. majority rule with due process to challenge in the courts) to determine what is permissible in society, be it polygamy, homosexuality, same sex marriage, etc.). I also note here that, if I understand you correctly, you feel government force should have no role as to how one conducts the most personal aspects of one’s life. I disagree. Although there may be practical limits as to what is possible for government to do, society properly has a role. For example, if we leave it to the individual to determine the most personal aspects of their life which are to be free of government intrusion, then we will be giving license for all manner of depravity. In Germany a few years ago two men, with documented mutual consent, consummated their relationship by one killing and then eating the other. For them, this was a most personal aspect of their life and relationship. Do you feel society should permit such conduct? If so, then you are consistent, though I feel misguided. If not, then you agree society plays a role, though we may disagree as to where the line should be drawn for that societal involvement. If the latter, what standard other than the voice of the people do you feel should be used to determine the extent of societal involvement? Accordingly, for this (and other reasons) it is my view that laws resulting from the voice of the people, and enforced in constitutionally permissible ways, do not infringe moral agency.

    Blacks and the Priesthood. Again, if I understand your position correctly, you learn from this issue that members of the Church who openly advocated against the Church because of the ban served a righteous purpose and at some level contributed to the lifting of the ban. Again, I see a different lesson to be learned. First, a clarification. By openly advocating against the Church, I mean those who publicly spoke against the Church and its leaders. I do not mean those who prayed fervently for understanding and strength to faithfully follow and sustain their priesthood leaders despite any strong personal misgivings they may have had about the ban. I further do not mean those who prayed fervently that, according to the will of the Lord, the ban might be lifted – even the Savior prayer that the cup might pass. Noting that clarification, I disagree that members who openly advocated against the Church served a righteous purpose and contributed to the lifting of the ban. For reasons I offer the following. First, certainly there is no necessary causal link between the two (advocacy and change); absent the Lord indicating otherwise, of which I am unaware, the link is only an assumed one. Second, it is contrary to well established doctrine pertaining to the divine role of prophets and apostles: namely, that it is through them that He leads Church members and reveals His will and not vice versa. Third, it is at odds with the commitments Church members make to sustain their Church leaders (I note that sustaining does not necessarily mandate agreement). Fourth, it is at odds with the Church’s Official Declaration-2 and places that document in a disingenuous light (the declaration confirms the ban was proper but announces that the Lord had revealed the time for its lifting had arrived). The lesson I learn, or rather further learn, from this episode in Church history is that the Lord’s ways are not man’s ways; that though some of His purposes and rationales remain a mystery, there is wisdom and safety in faithfully following His chosen servants. To do otherwise, to pick and choose according to my own lights when I will and when I won’t follow the Lord’s servants, when I will openly advocate against them, leaves me as a law unto myself – which is no law at all. My guess is we most need to follow the prophet when it is most difficult. That is when our faith is most tested, and most strengthened, and we learn the most about ourselves. I think of Abraham being instructed to offer Isaac. (Though I acknowledge we do not know the reasons for the Lord’s ban, I found this one compelling: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfaithblog/51976643-180/black-hamilton-church-lds.html.csp).

    Now, in light of the foregoing, I conclude by briefly going back to same sex marriage. Your concern that a prohibition of same sex marriage is a step towards theocracy seems to me to be unwarranted and extreme. If members of the Church advocate in the political and public square against same sex marriage for no reason other than the Church’s doctrine, and they prevailed through the political process to ban same sex marriage, this would not be a step towards theocracy. This would simply be the voice of the people exercising their right to establish national/community standards of propriety. I note, however, that they need not rely solely on Church doctrine for their position. There are many policy reasons for banning same sex marriage that much, perhaps even a majority, of America finds persuasive.

    Thank you for your patience – I have not been as succinct as I had hoped. I continue to welcome and value your thoughts.

  • Ralph,
    I am a rather orthodox member of the Church who tends to be moderate to conservative. As far as I can recall, I agree with what you posted on Meridian. What I disagree with is the necessity of confronting Joanna Brooks. You probably gave her far more publicity than she has had previously. I hope there remains room for the Joannas of the Church. I far from agree with all she says, but on the other hand, I think she reaches some members on the fringe who feel there is nothing left for them in the Church because the Church is largely conservative (a point I disagree with) as they see it. I think within in the framework of Jesus Christ’s gospel, He wants to gather all of us. Let’s keep in mind that historically in the Church we have some classic liberal leaders. Hugh B. Brown, Marion G. Romney and Marvin Jensen are great examples. Yet they are strong supporters and defenders of the Restored Gospel. There is room. There is room.

    That being said, I enjoy your blog and what is written here plus the diversity of comments. I will continue to be a reader. Thank you!

  • Hi professor. Let me start by saying Professor Hancock was my most influential and favorite professor at the Y. Now, that being said, I am disappointed over and over and over again that so much effort is made on the issues discussed here. I think people on these issues publish (I need to read more of the articles but not really) or blog on these issues because they generate conflict, discussion (not usually helpful), and site traffic. It is the same reason some of these issues are promoted by narrow-minded political groups — it turns the dial. The current status of our country, in terms of discourse, has driven me to the conclusion that had the founders conceived the power of advertisers, production crews, and marketing-research teams scrutinizing the effect of a word like “Obamacare” has on uneducated or barely educated 35 year old homeowner, they would restrict the right to vote altogether (there is my un-democratic thought of the day). To be sure, I do not believe that many people can insulate themselves from opinion-provoking advertisements, commercials, and talk radio hosts.

    So, that being said, why can our discourse not be about what we are doing to reduce poverty in our country? To improve healthcare? To reduce the deficit? Control corruption in politics? Address one of the greatest threats to our democratic republic — campaign finance reform. Dr. Hancock aside (he is my idol), I am usually disappointed with the genuine interest of citizens in our country to discuss these issues, opting instead to fight over moral issues where people’s personal experience color their perceptions to degree that makes objective, honest dialogue scarce. Usually, bloggers, like here, drape so much perceived support for their positions they put out there that they are looking for an “attaboy” or a venomous counter. Not real helpful, but fun for some. Seems like a waste of time to me.

    I will leave with this quote about a former President by Winston Churchill (last time he saw him): “If anything happened to that man, I couldn’t stand it. He is the truest friend; he has the farthest vision; he is the greatest man I have ever known.” You can figure out who the object of his praise was.

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The Responsibility of Reason
The Responsibility of Reason by Ralph C. Hancock

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The Conservative Foundations of the Liberal Order by Daniel J. Mahoney

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Modern and American Dignity by Peter Augustine Lawler

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